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League Discussion Thread II

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dgeneratio
dgeneratio
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21:20 Tue 15 May 12 (BST)  [Link]  
Old Thread: http://www.funkysnooker.com/thread/6683/clan-league-discussion-thread/100

please unsticky old one and sticky this one

cheers
dgeneratio
dgeneratio
Moderator
Posts: 54,018
21:23 Tue 15 May 12 (BST)  [Link]  
http://www.funkysnooker.com/thread/6683/clan-league-discussion-thread/100#627539

only problem i feel is that it takes away the incentive to play all the games which is what matters and a clan could run away with the league.

bonus for non default seems high but if enough agree it could be lowered
horse10000
horse10000
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Posts: 792
21:41 Tue 15 May 12 (BST)  [Link]  
I just realised the bonus is for completion rather than winning the match. As it is for completion you could easily have a clan that beats everyone but doesn't complete its games losing the league to a clan who has lost a couple of games but has completed all games without defaults. Pool scrapped completion bonus last season and we had less defaults than ever before which suggests it is pointless. Can i suggest that the bonus points are changed to be a win bonus for beating the other clan and hopefully this would then prevent a clan who beats all other clans possibly not winning the league.
adam_147
adam_147
Posts: 8,029
21:49 Tue 15 May 12 (BST)  [Link]  
completion bonus if I remember rightly was brought in because a clan won the league by trying not to play their last fixture against the 2nd place team, because they figured they would do better on defaults than against the players. Needed to put a stop to that!
whocares8x8
whocares8x8
Posts: 22,117
22:07 Tue 15 May 12 (BST)  [Link]  
Yeah, I'm gonna resist very heavily against scrapping the completion bonus and introducing the win bonus.

-A win bonus further separates the already large gap between the top clans and the bottom clans.
-A win bonus makes games in already decided fixtures more irrelevant, since the fixture is already won.
-A win bonus discourages late subs to get games done, because captains will not want to risk subbing out a good (but slightly inactive) player and losing the fixture.
-This is not a football league. We have run the league for many seasons under the assumption that whoever wins the most frames over the course of the season, wins the league. Otherwise, we would just give points for winning the fixture and make the frames themselves "goal difference". We don't want that.
If a clan beats everyone by 2 frames each fixture, but overall they have 15 fewer points, I don't believe they deserve to win the league.

Edited at 22:46 Tue 15/05/12 (BST)
whocares8x8
whocares8x8
Posts: 22,117
22:09 Tue 15 May 12 (BST)  [Link]  
completion bonus if I remember rightly was brought in because a clan won the league by trying not to play their last fixture against the 2nd place team, because they figured they would do better on defaults than against the players. Needed to put a stop to that!
Yes, that has never been an issue here. In contrast to pool, we (so far at least) do not have any idiots that would resort to such measures. The league has been massively more friendly than pool and will remain so.

I'm not sure why these very major changes are needed when we've just gone through the two smoothest seasons ever.
whocares8x8
whocares8x8
Posts: 22,117
22:11 Tue 15 May 12 (BST)  [Link]  
Pool scrapped completion bonus last season and we had less defaults than ever before which suggests it is pointless.
This is true for pool. However, only 1 season has been played since then- not exactly a huge sample size.
Here on snooker, we did not have a completion bonus for many seasons and had huge numbers of defaults. Since it was introduced, we've had 3 seasons of remarkably low defaults, suggesting it is very useful.
whocares8x8
whocares8x8
Posts: 22,117
22:19 Tue 15 May 12 (BST)  [Link]  
As the bonus is for completion you could easily have a clan that beats everyone but doesn't complete its games losing the league to a clan who has lost a couple of games but has completed all games without defaults
Yes, this could happen. And I don't think this would be a bad thing.
Not completing your games and letting them go to defaults is bad for the league. It means that results are not decided on the table and is not what we want. So I think it's a fair punishment.
The league is not just about playing well. Games must be played. We don't want clans to win a lot of games but not bother getting games done because it's not important and they've already won a fixture bonus.
A league champion should be both a good clan and a reliable clan.


Sorry for all the posts lol, just covering the different points made.
adam_147
adam_147
Posts: 8,029
22:23 Tue 15 May 12 (BST)  [Link]  
Yep completion bonus needs to stay as it seems to be doing a good job. But if you look at this years results:

FSE 34-20 Vikings
FSE 39-15 Black Ballers
FSE 37-17 Snooker Legends
FSE 29-24 D&C
FSE 41-13 Allstarz

Vikings 20-34 FSE
Vikings 27-27 D&C
Vikings 36-18 Allstarz
Vikings 32-22 Snooker Legends
Vikings 33-21 Black Ballers

D&C 31-23 Allstarz
D&C 27-27 Vikings
D&C 33-21 Black Ballers
D&C 24-29 FSE
D&C 29-25 Snooker Legends

Average frames per fixture:
FSE: 180/5=36
Vikings: 148/5=29.6
D&C: 144/5=28.8

There is no way that FSE should have only just scraped the league!
whocares8x8
whocares8x8
Posts: 22,117
22:31 Tue 15 May 12 (BST)  [Link]  
Good point adam and a good argument for lowering the completion bonus a bit.

Defaults:

FSE: 8
Vikings: 2
D&C: 1

In line with what I said in my previous post, I think FSE received a bit of punishment for not getting games done.

But yes, this season was closer than it should've been, although it was an extreme situation of a good team being four times as unreliable as their closest opponents.
whocares8x8
whocares8x8
Posts: 22,117
22:34 Tue 15 May 12 (BST)  [Link]  
In more broad terms, for the last few seasons we focused heavily on getting defaults down and have succeeded in doing so. Most defaults are partially completed games.
4 seasons ago we had an average of about 2 defaults per team per fixture, which was ridiculous.

So I think lowering the completion bonus to 7 (I would like to keep it above the worth of one game) should do the trick?
adam_147
adam_147
Posts: 8,029
22:36 Tue 15 May 12 (BST)  [Link]  
Yeah I think 7 would be more reasonable. Also FSE got double punished on some defaults, not only losing the bonus but half the time the default score is a lot less than we would get by playing it!
whocares8x8
whocares8x8
Posts: 22,117
22:38 Tue 15 May 12 (BST)  [Link]  
Just for reference.

Default Scores:

FSE: 21-17
Vikings: 11-1
D&C: 4-1

I say we take away all points earned from defaults. We win.
Deleted User
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23:04 Tue 15 May 12 (BST)  [Link]  
All i can say is dont change anything that the current league uses as they run perfectly as the last 2 seasons have proven. I think the only thing we should be discussing is how to make the league bigger and better. Points are fine in My eyes.
Deleted User
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23:15 Tue 15 May 12 (BST)  [Link]  
As seb said a clan should be good and reliable. FSE are good but reliable are not so good. If we changed the bonus system this would suit them more. They won with 30 less bonus points then any other clan. clans should be forced to play All games or face not getting 10 bonus points in My eyes.
bluenose1872
bluenose1872
Posts: 1,132
23:18 Tue 15 May 12 (BST)  [Link]  
I would just like to say that Pool can not even be used as an example on here, basically because they are both different leagues on a different site. Some things that work for Snooker would not work for Pool and vice versa.

The win bonus on Pool has made the defaults so much lower than they where a few seasons back but i think if it was to come into Snooker it possibly would increase defaults.
adam_147
adam_147
Posts: 8,029
23:23 Tue 15 May 12 (BST)  [Link]  
Point of the clan league though is that the best clan should win, the fact that FSE smashed every clan they played shows that they should have won comfortably. It's not called "most active clan league", ultimately skill is more important that activity. The bonus is an incentive to get people playing games.
dgeneratio
dgeneratio
Moderator
Posts: 54,018
23:27 Tue 15 May 12 (BST)  [Link]  
didn't smash every clan but i see your point, however i think no default bonus should stay if its lowered or not, dislike win bonus
bluenose1872
bluenose1872
Posts: 1,132
23:29 Tue 15 May 12 (BST)  [Link]  
I think "smashed" is the wrong word to use mate beat Vikings by 14 points and D&C by 9 i think?

Always wondered why the snooker league only allows teams to play each other once though, can this be explained please
dgeneratio
dgeneratio
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Posts: 54,018
23:33 Tue 15 May 12 (BST)  [Link]  
i think its because Snooker only has 1 division so the season is longer but if clans remain same as this season we will probably bring in playing each other twice to make season longer
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League Discussion Thread II

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